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Concordant Literal compared to KJV Sunday, 02-May-99 15:20:00
My comments follow the > and LAIRD REPLIES. Don's remarks are indicated by the ::: :::Romans 11:36 "seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!"(note: How can the glory of Jesus Christ change? Contradicts 1 Timothy 1:17 "....glory for the eons of the eons!..." The rendering John 8:35 is also inconsistent, "...for the eon..." ) > Glory is defined as a "highly favorable opinion and that which impresses it on the senses or the mind". Should not God be recieving glory for {literally, INTO} the eons? You have not explained how anything is inconsistent or contradictory. :::Then why is John 8:35 not translated "for the eons of the eons."? You are implying that Jesus' glory changes. Malachi 3:6 "For I [am] the LORD, I change not;..." James 1:17 "...the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning...." LAIRD REPLIES: Why? Because God didn't say "for the eons of the eons", but rather "for [into] the eon". That's why. Secondly, the context is talking about a slave of sin "not remaining in the house for the eon". Slaves of sin will be dead for the eon of the millenium, but will be raised at its end, so it would be out of place here to speak of "eons of the eons". See? :::1 Timothy 6:16 "Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (note: How can Jesus Christ be eonian when he is immortal? This grossly contradicts universalists definition of immortality of their own bodies of 1 Corinthians 15:52 - 54. Denial of this immortality is denying their own doctrine!) > Do you not believe that our immortality will last through the "times eonian" {2Tim.1:9}? To render this "before times eternal" would be nonsense, for nothing can be before times which are eternal. I see no contradiction here. It is sheer interpretation and not translation to render aionios as eternal here rather than "eonian". Eonian is translation and leaves the interpetation to that between God and the reader. It does not impose the preconcieved interpretations of Traditionalism upon the reader as if they were faithful translations. That those of ancient NT Koine Greek commonly used aionios of finite time is indisputable. For a few examples: "At Isa. 60:15, the adjective is used: "I will make you an eonian (aionion) excellency." This is followed by, "a joy of many generations." Eonian cannot mean endlessness here, for when the eons close, generations cease for there will be no more procreation. :::The "many" in Isaiah 60:15 is "01755 dowr {dore}" which is defined "generation." (singular). "generations" is also "dowr". Hence, generation and generation. Believers in Jesus Christ through his blood, will inherit eternal life. Endless life. In other words, life identical to those of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That life. I do not intend for this to sound insulting, however, when you teach a doctrine that illustrates a word that associates itself with the Godhead, such as life for example or His glory, believers in Christ inherit that life that is exactly defined as those same attributes pertaining to God's life. That is what I am illustrating here. "aion and aionios" can and are defined in a dynamic range, I fully agree with you in that context, but so is "all" (pas). Those words must be carefully translated and applied to doctrine. For another example, death: "Mat 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:" and "Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:" Since Jesus Christ did die, but He rose again, but did He ever curse "thy father and thy mother..."? No, of course not. Death here is contextually different in these two contrasting verse applications. Another contrasting verse, "Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." Jesus Christ CANNOT suffer spiritual death, nor was he forsaken, the sins of others were forsaken. However, his physical body died, but was resurrected on the third day. Unbelievers in Jesus Christ will see death. Even yourself agree with this, however you believe this is only "for a duration of time." LAIRD REPLIES: All means all, not some. When we read "all mankind" will be justified, it means the "all" is limited to mankind {Rom.5:18-19}. When we read of "all" of you {i.e. believers}, it is speaking of Christians. Context determines the extent of "all". As for Isa.60:15, the translation you give is likely most accurate & is agreed upon by the CVOT, YLT & Ro, etc. Still, it has yet to be shown by even one solitary example that aionios must mean eternal in the Koine NT Greek. Even if it is such only because it is applied to a being whose "years have no end", it is nonsense to extend this reasoning to the unscriptural notion of endless torture in hell. . >"In 1 Enoch 10:10 there is an interesting statement using the Greek words: zoên aionion, "life eonian," or, as in the KJV, "everlasting life" (at John 3:16 and elswhere). The whole sentence in Enoch is, hoti elpizousi zêsai zoên aionion, kai hoti zêsetai hekastos auton etê pentakosia, "For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years." Here, eonian life is limited to five hundred years! In the N.T. eonian life is limited to life during the eons, after which death will be destroyed by making ALL alive IN CHRIST, incorruptible and immortal." {Louis Abbott, Analytical Study of Words website}. :::All{pas}: Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all[3956] and upon all[3956] them that believe: for there is no difference: Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all[3956] Israel, which are of Israel: Romans 10:16 But they have not all[3956] obeyed the gospel. Romans 12:4 For as we have many[4183] members in one body, and all[3956] members have not the same office: 1Corinthians 12:30 Have all[3956] the gifts of healing? do all[3956] speak with tongues? do all[3956] interpret? Acts 13:39 And by him all[3956] that believe are justified from all things[3956], from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 2Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 2Corinthians 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?..." 2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all[3956] under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:26 For ye are all[3956] the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all[3956] one in Christ Jesus. John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all[3956] in all[3956]. Philippians 2:21 For all[3956] seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's. 1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things[3956]; hold fast that which is good. 2Thessalonians 2:12 That they all[3956] might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all[3956] [men] have not faith. 2Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them[3956] also that love his appearing. Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things[3956] [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. LAIRD REPLIES: Again, "all" must be seen in each context. You cannot apply its extent in one passage to that in another. In Col.1:20 it is "all" in the heavens & on the earth who will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood. In 1Cor.15:22 it is "all" in Adam who shall be "in Christ". In 1Tim.2:4 it is "all mankind" whom God wills to save. Same with 1Tim.4:10 - the "all" includes all mankind, not just the predestined that God is the Saviour of. :::Hebrews 7:28 "For the law is appointing men chief priests who have infirmity, yet the word sworn in the oath which is after the law, appoints the Son, perfected, for the eon." (note: Jesus Christ never sinned, He is perfect for all eternity. Singular rendering of "...for the eon..." contradicts the plural of eon in Hebrews 13:8 "...for the eons..." ) > The perfection of Scripture is realized here. Traditionalist versions render two different words, eon and eons, as "forever", but the CLNT acknowledges the distinctions that the Divine Author has made & retains them in His Scriptures. To be consistent in their renderings, Traditionalists should have made eon "forever" and eons "foreverS". But that would have been nonsense. A careful study of scripture in context will reveal why the Divine Author has a single eon in view in some passages and a plurality of eons in mind in other verses. :::Hebrews 9:12 "not even through the blood of he-goats and calves, but through His own blood, entered once for all time into the holy places, finding eonian redemption." (note: this is making a mockery out of Jesus Christ dying on the cross.) > Not at all. Redemption is not something that is given beyond the eons, so it is eonian rather than eternal. When God becomes "All in all" {1Cor.15:28}, there will be no more redemption required, for all will have been either redeemed or justified. Those who were not redeemed before the year of jubillee were set free at the year of jubillee. Redemption only lasted up till that time. Similarly, God's mercy is not everlasting, for once all become reconciled to God {Col.1:20}, mercy will no longer be needed, for all will be in right standing with God, justified, and incorruptible. Even in Traditionalist theology everlasting mercy makes no sense, for God has lost all patience & given up all hope for the lost - He no longer extends mercy to them. The truth is, however, God will be merciful to all {Rom.11:32,36}. :::If the blood of Jesus Christ is not eternal then forgiveness and the atonement of sin has not been paid. Therefore, eternal life does not exist as we know it. God cannot look at sin. Not one sin. "all in all"---1 Cor. 15:28 is referring to the Body of Christ. Do a word study on {pas, 3956}. Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all[3956] of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all[3956] them that obey him; 2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all[3956] should come to repentance. 1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all[3956] of us. LAIRD REPLIES: The blood of Jesus cleanses sin. Once we recieve an endless life through immortality and incorruption {1Cor.15:42,53}, there will be no more sin hence no more need of cleansing of sin by His blood. So redemption is "eonian", as I explained. Cleansing of sin is not an endless process, but immortal life is endless. Secondly, as for Heb.5:9, it speaks of "EONIAN salvation". In order to grasp the Scriptural teaching of universal salvation, it is important to understand how the word "salvation" is used in the Bible. The word "save" {Greek, SOZO} means "keep or deliver from injury or evil, such as disease, drowning, but especially from sins and their effect" {Greek-English Keyword Concordance, p.257}. The well-known Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says {Vine is "orthodox", btw}: "SOZO, to save, is used {as with the noun SOTERIA, salvation} of material and temporal deliverance from danger, suffering, etc., e.g. Matt.8:25; Mark 13:20; Luke 23:35; John 12:27; 1Tim.2:15; 2Tim.4:18 {A.V. preserve}; Jude 5; from sickness, Matt. 9:22, Jas.5:15;..." {p.321}. He SHALL *save* His people Israel from their sins {Mt.1:21}. Who are His people? Israel {Mt.2:6}. All Israel SHALL be saved {Rom.11:26}. Is that clear? In Lk.8:49-50 the word "saved" is used of being saved from death. Mt.8:25; 14:30 refer to being "saved" from drowning. Scripture speaks of salvation is numerous ways that are not always regarding endless salvation, such as in salvation from disease, salvation from danger, a storm, salvation in child-bearing. It also speaks of the "eonian salvation" {Heb.5:9} of the believer, also termed "life eonian" {Jn.3:16}. This is the special {"especially" 1Tim.4:10} salvation that believers recieve that unbelievers do not. It is salvation in the oncoming eons that Paul speaks of {Eph.2:7}. These "eons" [or ages] refer to the millenial eon and the following new earth eon {wherein there will still be sickness, Rev.22:2, and generations, Psa.105:8}. At the 'end' of the eons {1Cor.15:24; Heb.9:26} God becomes "All in all" {1Cor.15:28; cf. v.22; Eph.1:9-11; Phil.2:9-11; etc} & thus all shall enter into eternity with salvation. So there is both a special "eonian salvation" to those who believe during the eons, and the salvation of all others also at the end of the eons and for eternity. These are two distinct revelations of the Scriptures. For God is the "Saviour of all mankind, especially [not exclusively] of them that believe" {1Tim.4:10}. :::1 Peter 1:23 "having been regenerated, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, living and permanent," (contradiction: Strong's #165 "aion" is rendered 'permanent' in this verse). > Strong's is based on KJV which was not based on the oldest MSS which have no "aion" in this verse. Thus NIV has "enduring"; NASB "abiding"; NEB, "enduring" where the CLV has "permanent". Do you think all those versions also contradictory? Are you of the view that the KJV is the only true & perfect Word of God? :::Yes, the KJV is the only true and perfect Word of God. And that is another argument that we can talk about later. But to avoid focus on these issues, but if you are so inclined to discuss the inerrancy of the KJV, I will be more than happy to discuss them with you. This discussion will not be short however. Either way. You failed to cite the parallel verse that will prove that the word of God is "aion." 1 Peter 1:25, "aion" appears in both the minority and majority Greek NT texts. Your only argument here is to say that "logos" and "rhema" are contextually separate. They are not. The rhema in 1 Peter 1:25 is also written in John 6:68. You wrote "That which is "for the eon" is, of course, "eonian". OK, then why does the LC not translate it "eonian" then? I thought your beloved LC is an accurate translation? LAIRD REPLIES: Well, I am certainly not of the view that the KJV is perfect. As for the declaration of the Lord, it is certainly "eonian". I see no problem with that. Peter explains that "this is the declaration which is being brought to you in the evangel" {1Pt.1:25}. Peter was declaring this declaration during the "times eonian" {2Tim.1:9}, in particular the "present wicked eon" {Gal.1:4}. So His declarations are indeed "eonian". How can anyone deny this? To make it "before times eternal" instead of "before times eonian" would be nonsense {Tit.1:2; 2Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25}. :::1 Peter 1:25 "Yet the declaration of the Lord is remaining for the eon." (contradiction: the Greek word "rhema" which is Strong's #4487 also appears in John 6:68 "Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we come away? Declarations of life eonian has Thou!") > I see no contradiction here. That which is "for the eon" is, of course, "eonian". It looks like perfect harmony to me. :::1 John 5:20 "Yet we are aware that the Son of God is arriving, and has given us a comprehension, that we know the True One, and we are in the True One, in His Son, Jesus Christ. This One is the true God and life eonian." (contradiction: 'arriving?' changing past tense into present tense, Jesus Christ had already ascended into heaven!) > This does not regard His ascension into heaven, but His coming to men throughout the eons & generations. In this age of grace He continues to arrive in men's lives, generation after generation. NASB says "has come"; YLT, "is come". The Concordant Expositions website elaborates on the translation of Greek verb tenses in the CLV. There is also an article contrasting various verses in the KJV with the CLV, showing how KJV has been mistranslated. :::No. Refer to Titus 3:4 "Yet when the kindness and fondness for humanity of our Saviour, God, made its advent....." Are not the words "made" past tense? "Advent" past tense? Also 1 Timothy 3:16, "...who was manifested in flesh, justified in spirit, seen by messengers, heralded among the nations, believed in the world, taken up in glory." All references here are PAST tense "manifested.......justified......seen........heralded.......believed......taken." Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons! Amen!" LAIRD REPLIES: Sorry, I don't see your point here. > Since the Son reigns only "UNTIL" He gives up the kingdom to the Father {1Cor.15:24-28}, we know that "eons of the eons" here is referring to a finite time period. Note: the CLV makes a note that it says literally INTO "the eons of the eons", not FOR. God shall be living INTO "the eons of the eons", but, of course, that does not deny that He will still be living when the "eons of the eons" end. It does not say He is living ONLY "into the eons of the eons". The Concordant Expositions website article "Eon as Indefinite Duration {Part 2}" has further comments on this point that should be helpful. Please refer to the link below. :::The Kingdom of Jesus Christ, once all judgment and death have been brought before the Great White Throne of Judgment, then the Son will turn over the Kingdom to the Father. Jesus Christ rose from the dead, ONCE. There is only one resurrection. Those who are in the resurrection of the just. Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST resurrection: on such the second death hath NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. After the conclusion of these 1000 years, the unjust are resurrected. After judgment, they die again. Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. So here, in verse 20:14, when death and hell were cast.........this is the second death. So where is there a 2nd resurrection after the second death? There has to be a second resurrection from the dead for the unsaved for "all" to be saved. LAIRD REPLIES: If there were only one resurrection, it would be pointless in speaking of a "first" resurrection. Scripture speaks of numerous resurrections, both in the Greek and in the Hebrew Scriptures. As for there being a resurrection from the "second death", all the Scriptures that speak of the salvation of all mankind guarantee that. If any die again after their first death, they are guaranteed a resurrection because death itself will eventually be abolished {1Cor.15:26}. Since the dead are dead not alive, it is necessary that death be abolished & they be brought back to life "in Christ" {v.22} before God can be "All in all" {v.28}. God cannot be "All" to those who are dead. To them He is nothing, for they are conscious of nothing. The following webpage shows 3 resurrections in 1Cor.15:22-28 alone: http://expage.com/page/inchristall. We are never actually told that any mortals will enter the second death. In John's writings we see the following: ====================================================== First, I would point out that 20:15 in many translation says "IF" any were cast into the lake of fire. Secondly, 21:5 says in some translations that God is "makING ALL new" or "everything" new. This speaks of an ongoing process. Can you therefore rule out universal salvation being taught in these chapters? Thirdly, I will note that the judgements herein spoken of are not 'forever and ever' but eonian, literally "into the ages of the ages", as all authorities concur. Since "ages" {i.e. eons} in the Scriptures have both a beginning and an end, we have no warrant in Scripture for presuming that the judgements of Revelation are endless. Quite the contrary, they are finite. Fourthly, as noted in the book of John, Jesus says all judgements are "that ALL may *honor* the Son" {Jn.5:22-23}, so of a corrective nature. This applies, therefore, to the great white throne judgement of the mortals who will be raised from the dead for the purpose of appearing there. Fifth, I can post material showing that the judgement of Mat.25:46 uses language that speaks of corrective punishment or "chastening", as numerous Bible versions have it. I also showed that the Greek aionios speaks of that which pertains to finite time periods as used in the Scriptures and in ancient Greek literature. Sixthly, we have John's previous writing of his gospel wherein he speaks of "life eonian" in contrast to "eonian" 'perishing' {Jn.3:16}. The "life" spoken of in Rev.20:15 must be understood in the light of John 3:16, that it is speaking of "life EONIAN" not 'eternal'. This is confirmed by the phrase "ages of the ages" {or, eons} in reference to judgement in the same passage at 20:10. Seventh, we have numerous additional statements by John in his writings that point to universal salvation, such as in John 1:13,29; 4:42; 5:22-23; 6:29;12:32; 15:16; 1Jn.2:1-2; 3:8; 4:14, etc. The following article compares Rev.20-22 with 1Cor.15:22-28, AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS Chapter Seventeen The Complete Revelation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 "The more one studies this Scripture as well as dozens like it, it becomes abundantly clear that as in Adam all died, the very same all will be made alive in Christ. There is not one in Adam who will not be made alive in Christ." - Louis Abbott "Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 takes us much farther into the future than does the book of Revelation." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some say that the teaching of universal salvation, or reconciliation, gives one license to do as he wishes with no fear for the consequences, and the "hell-fire" must be taught in order to keep them in line and get them saved. Some say also that Paul's teaching of salvation by grace gives license to sin, but consider this fact: Denominational teaching has included threats of eternal punishment in hell for many centuries, and it has not "saved" the masses of humanity as yet. Do men serve God best when they realize He loves humanity, or when they fear He will send them to "hell" forever? Romans 5:8-12 tells us God loved us while we were yet sinners, and sent Christ to die for the sake of the irreverent. Although most seem to believe the book of Revelation tells of God's ultimate goal, Paul tells us it was given to him to complete the words of God and the consummation was revealed to him, not to John, even though in human measurement of time, Revelation probably was written after the books attributed to Paul. Paul says (Col. 1:25), "...of which I became the dispenser according to the administration of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God." He was not speaking in terms of time, but in matters of revelation. It is through the writings of Paul that we get the truths concerning God's ultimate goal for mankind, as well as for the entire universe. Dr. J.B. Lightfoot, in his commentary on Colossians, says (p. 67), "The word plerosai, to fulfill; i.e., to preach fully. To give its complete development to." Luther used reichlich predigen, "to preach fully," and Olshausen says: "That is, to declare the gospel in all its fullness and extent." Each of these writers were commenting upon the plêrosai, the completing of the revelation of God, by Paul. Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given in Revelation and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here: "In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22: In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have: No more rule No more authority No more power No more enemies No more reigning All subjected No more death, death destroyed. All made alive, immortal In Revelation 20-22, we have: Still rule (20:6; 22:5) Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5) Authority (21:24,25) Power (21:24,25; 22:2 Kings (21:24-26) Saints reign (22:5) Second death still exists (21:5) The nations still mortal (22:2) -end quote Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20-22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.) Consequently, Col. 1:16-20: All in heaven and earth created in Him (verse 16) All for Him (verse 16) All estranged are reconciled (verse 20) 1 Corinthians 15:22: In Adam all are dying In Christ shall all be made alive The literal Greek in 1 Corinthians 15:22 reads: hosphor gar en to Adam pantes apothneskousin houtos kai en to christo pantes zoopoiethesontai. "Even as for in the Adam all are dying, thus also in the Christ, all shall be made alive." The more one studies this Scripture as well as dozens more like it, it becomes abundantly clear that as in Adam all died, that very same all will be made alive in Christ. There is not one in Adam that will not be made alive in Christ. It is a perfectly balanced statement which Jesus said was already set in motion. ====================================== :::Revelation 22:5 "And night shall be no more, and they have no need of lamplight and sunlight, for the Lord God shall be illuminating them. And they shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." (note: very contradictory rendering of "aionios" since this reign is after the judgement, not before!) > The word here is AIONON, not "aionios". Aionios is the adjectival form whereas AIONON is the noun in its plural form, the noun being AION. Revelation 20:5-6 says they will live & reign with Christ "the thousand years", that is, for the millenial EON. Rev.22:5 reveals that they will also reign for EONS {plural}. John, the writer, was speaking from the time frame before the millenium begins. Moreover, immediately following the statement of v.5 he is again back to the time frame of Rev.1:1, as is evident from 20:6ff. It was already shown above that the "eons of the eons" have an end, so are not 'forever & ever'. :::Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality[861], eternal[166] life: (note: same thing here again with #166{aionios}, except it is not #165{aion}) > This is the KJV rendering, and the word is "incorruption", which is mistranslated by KJV as "immortality". The correct translation is: Rom.2:7 "to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian;" Compare the use of the word "incorruption" {APHTHARSIA}with that in Ephesians 6:24, Eph.6:24 "Grace be with all who are loving our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption! Amen!" Of course Paul is not speaking in Eph.6:24 of the saints loving the Lord in immortality, for they were not immortal then! The idea there is loving the Lord "in incorruption" or something similar to purity. Purity is also the thought in Rom.2:9. What is being spoken of in Rom.2:9 is "life eonian", not eternal life, and no one can obtain this by good works & seeking incorruption, for it is a free & gracious gratuity of God {Rom.6:23} to the chosen, predestinated, called ones {Rom.8:28-30; 2Tim.1:9; Eph.1:4-5,11}. Scripture speaks of salvation in numerous ways that are not regarding endless salvation, such as in salvation from disease, salvation from danger, a storm, salvation in child-bearing. It also speaks of the "eonian salvation" {Heb.5:9} of the believer, also termed "life eonian" {Jn.3:16}. This is the special {"especially" 1Tim.4:10} salvation that believers recieve that unbelievers do not. It is the salvation in the oncoming eons that Paul speaks of {Eph.2:7}. These "eons" [or ages] refer to the millenial eon and the following new earth eon {wherein there will still be sickness, Rev.22:2, and generations, Psa.105:8}. At the 'end' of the eons {1Cor.15:24; Heb.9:26} God becomes "All in all" {1Cor.15:28; cf. v.22; Eph.1:9-11; Phil.2:9-11; etc} & thus all shall enter into eternity with salvation. So there is both a special "eonian salvation" to those who believe during the eons, and the salvation of all others also at the end of the eons and for eternity. These are two distinct revelations of the Scriptures. For God is the "Saviour of all mankind, especially [not exclusively] of them that believe" {1Tim.4:10}. :::2Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality[861] to light through the gospel: IMMORTALITY {athanasia} Strong's #110 uses of [110] in the King James Version > Of course Jesus Christ has not yet "abolished death", so the KJV here is nonsense. The CLNT reads: 10 "yet now is being manifested through the advent of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, Who, indeed, abolishes death, yet illuminates life and incorruption through the evangel". Death will not be fully abolished till 1Cor.15:26. Now it is in the process of being abolished, beginning with the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the transformation of the called ones throughout the generations. :::Nonsense? Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 1Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death IN THE FLESH, but quickened by the Spirit: LAIRD REPLIES: I don't see death having been abolished in any of these verses. Scripture plainly says that believers still die {Rom.8:36; 38; 1Cor.15:16-19; 1Thess.4:13-18}. Laird Here are a few more maybe you can explain to me clearer: Romans 3:22 "yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's FAITH, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction," (note: this rendering contradicts with Romans 3:25, Acts 24:24, Acts 20:21, Acts 26:18, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:26, and Ephesians 1:15 to only name a few verses! Righteousness is only thru faith IN Jesus Christ.) Ephesians 3:12 "in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith." (note: this rendering contradicts with Romans 3:25, Acts 24:24, Acts 20:21, Acts 26:18, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:26, and Ephesians 1:15 to only name a few verses! Righteousness is only thru faith IN Jesus Christ.) LAIRD REPLIES: Unbelievers will be believe by sight and thus be saved, similarly as Thomas and Paul. More blessed are those who have not seen and believed. Since all will ultimately be "in Christ" {1Cor.15:22; Eph.1:9-11}, reconciled to God through Christ's blood {Col.1:20}, and acclaim Jesus is Lord to the glory of God in the role of Father {Phil.2:9-11}, it goes without saying that all will believe and enter into that "in Christ" relationship with the Father. Belief is in itself a work of God {Jn.6:29}, not of man {Jn.1:13; Eph.2:8-10}. It is a gracious gift of God so that all boasting is debarred {Phil.1:29; 1Cor.1:29-31}. Therefore Paul says, I am what I am by the grace of God {1Cor.15:10}. Eonian life {eonian salvation, Hb.5:9; Jn.3:16} is a gratuity of God {Rom.6:23} from an Almighty, omnipotent, Sovereign God Who is love to those whom He predestined, called by irresistible grace, and chose "before times eonian" {Eph.1:4-5,11; 2Tim.1:9}. :::Mark 3:29 "yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin." (note: this is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit by implying that the Holy Spirit is not equal with The Father and The Son. The Holy Spirit is also given by Jesus Christ. John 14:18, John 20:22, Matthew 3:11, 2 Thessalonians 2:8) LAIRD REPLIES: The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not failing to write the words "Holy" and "Spirit" in small letters. Jesus never said that. To capitalize the letters would assume that the Holy Spirit is a person as distinct from being "the power of the Most High" {Lk.1:35}, so the CV leaves it to the reader to determine that rather than imposing it upon the Scriptures. Similarly, the CV doesn't interpret aion as do the KJV and others but literally translates it as "eon" and leaves the interpretation to the reader and between himself and God. The Concordant Literal Version is contrasted with the KJV at: http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/how2.html In Christ, Laird ************************* If eternal torment {hell} were true, then would abortion be a righteous act? This may come as a shock to most Christians today, but what is today the remnant view was a widespread view for the first five hundred years of Christianity. "As a matter of fact, of the six theological schools we know existed in the second to fourth century, four of them believed in the salvation of all mankind, only one taught annihilation, and only one taught eternal torment, the school at Rome. The doctrine of eternal torment did not become popular until the fifth century when Augustine began to push it." Once the doctrine was firmly injected into the church, thereafter followed the Dark Ages. Tentmaker.org Following is a list of Scriptures used to support the view that all mankind will be saved. Do they contradict the beliefs that you presently hold? 1 Timothy 2:4 God wills all to be saved & Eph.1:11 God operates all after the counsel of His will & Isa.46:10 Does all His desire Job 23:13 Does what His soul desires {Psa.115:3} John 12:32 Will draw all to Himself 1 Timothy 2:6 Christ a Ransom for all {the testimony in its own eras}, John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the world 1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the world John 1:29 Lamb takes away sin of the world 1Jn.2:2 Atoning sacrifice for sins of whole world Romans 5:18-19 By Adam all condemned, by Christ all to be justified 1 Corinthians 15:22 In Adam all die, "in Christ" all shall be made alive Ephesians 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times 1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be abolished Philippians 2:9-11 Every tongue to confess Jesus is Lord 1 Corinthians 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit Romans 11:26 All Israel will be saved Colossians 1:16,20 All to be reconciled unto God Romans 11:32 God locks all in stubbornness to have mercy on all Romans 11:36 All out of God, through Him, and into Him Phil.3:21 Able to subject all to Himself II Corinthians 5:14-15 Jesus died for all I Timothy 4:9-11 God is the Savior of all Isa.45:23 Every knee shall bow to God Isa.45:23 Every tongue shall confess to God Daniel 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth Acts 16:14 The Lord opens men's hearts Prov.19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands Rom.9:16 Salvation not of him who wills Acts 13:48 Those appointed to life eonian believe Eph.1:4,5,11 Men predestined Jn.6:28-29 Our belief is the work of God Mat.11:20-24 Men would have repented seeing miracles Eph.2:8-10 Salvation not of yourselves John 1:13 New birth not of man's will Matt.1:21 Shall save His people [Israel] from their sins Lam.3:22 His compassions fail not Mt.5:44 Love your enemies Rom.14:11 Every knee shall bow Rom.14:11 Every tongue shall acclaim God 1Cor.13:8 Love never fails John 5:22-23 All judgement is corrective, "that all may honor the Son", not vindictive. 1 Corinthians 15:28 God will be all in all -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rom 5:18-19 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just 1Cor 15:22-28 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him who subjects all to Him. Now whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all. Eph 1:8-12 in all wisdom and prudence making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him) to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ—both that in the heavens and that on the earth—in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ. Col 1:14-20 In Whom we are having the deliverance, the pardon of sins, Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or soveignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first, for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile all to Him ( making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. 1Tim 2:1-7 I am entreating, then first of all, that petitions, prayers, pleadings, thanksgiving be made for all mankind, for kings and all those being in a superior station, that we may be leading a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity, for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth. For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras), for which I was appointed a herald and an apostle ( I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the nations in knowledge and truth. 1Tim 4:9-11 Faithful is the saying and worth of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching. Concordant Expositions http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/index.html Saviour of All Fellowship http://www.expression.org/~tnungesser/ Tentmaker: Universalism Widespread in Church to 500 A.D. http://www.tentmaker.org God's Truth For Today http://www.algorithms.com/users/rcondon/truth.htm Aion Link Page http://www.theshop.net/gjess/aionlink.htm Analytical Study of Words http://www.theshop.net/gjess/asw.htm http://expage.com/page/eternalandeonian http://expage.com/page/hellmyth http://expage.com/page/universalsalvation http://expage.com/page/helloruniversalsalvation http://expage.com/page/inchristall http://expage.com/page/godallinall In His unfailing love, Laird 1Cor.13:8 Laird |
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