Posted by Laird (207.236.88.189) on August 23, 1999 at 18:01:18:

In Reply to: Any bible-experts around? posted by T on August 23, 1999 at 14:10:54:

: Since the internet isn't always a reliable source of information I must ask. Is this a reliable on-line bible? Is it safe to qoute from this text?

Try Young's Literal Translation:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible

or better yet, the Concordant Literal Version:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheScriptures/index.html
 
 

1A---DON ASKS: (quoting from Concordant Literal) Romans 11:36 "seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!"(note:  How can the glory of Jesus Christ change? Contradicts 1 Timothy 1:17 "....glory for the eons of the eons!..." The rendering John 8:35 is also inconsistent, "...for the eon..." )

1B---LAIRD REPLIES:  Glory is defined as a "highly favorable opinion and that which impresses it on the senses or the mind". Should not God be recieving glory for {literally, INTO} the eons? You have not explained how anything is inconsistent or contradictory.

2A---DON ASKS: Then why is John 8:35 not translated (quoting from Concordant Literal)"for the eons of the eons."? You are implying that Jesus' glory changes.
Malachi 3:6 "For I [am] the LORD, I change not;..."
James 1:17 "...the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning...."

2B---LAIRD REPLIES: Why? Because God didn't say "for the eons of the eons", but rather "for [into] the eon". That's why. Secondly, the context is talking about a slave of sin "not remaining in the house for the eon". Slaves of sin will be dead for the eon of the millenium, but will be raised at its end, so it would be out of place here to speak of "eons of the eons". See?

3A---DON ASKS: (quoting from Concordant Literal) 1 Timothy 6:16 "Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (note: How can Jesus Christ be eonian when he is immortal? This grossly contradicts universalists definition of immortality of their own bodies of 1 Corinthians 15:52 - 54. Denial of this immortality is denying their own doctrine!)  Go see post "7B" and confirm this for yourself.

3B---LAIRD REPLIES:  Do you not believe that our immortality will last through the "times eonian" {2Tim.1:9}? To render this "before times eternal" would be nonsense, for nothing can be before times which are eternal. I see no contradiction here. It is sheer interpretation and not translation to render aionios as eternal here rather than "eonian". Eonian is translation and leaves the interpetation to that between God and the reader. It does not impose the preconcieved interpretations of Traditionalism upon the reader as if they were faithful translations. That those of ancient NT Koine Greek commonly used aionios of finite time is indisputable. For a few examples:
(quoting from Concordant Literal) At "Isa. 60:15, the adjective is used: "I will make you an eonian (aionion) excellency." This is followed by, "a joy of many generations." Eonian cannot mean endlessness here, for when the eons close, generations cease for there will be no more procreation.

4A---DON ASKS:  So the excellency of God is not endless?  Wrong.  Refer to Psalms 68:34 "Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency [is] over Israel, and his strength [is] in the clouds."  The "many" in Isaiah 60:15 is "01755 dowr {dore}" which is defined "generation" (singular). "Generations" is also "dowr".  Hence, generation and generation.  Believers in Jesus Christ through His blood, will inherit eternal life.  Endless life. In other words, life identical to those of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That endless life. I do not intend for this to sound insulting, however, when you teach a doctrine that illustrates a word that associates itself with the Godhead, such as life for example or His glory, believers in Christ inherit that life that is exactly defined as those same attributes pertaining to God's life. That is what I am illustrating here. "aion and aionios" can and are defined in a dynamic range from "for an age" to "endlessness" as aion is an attribute that describes the glory, the immortality, the righteousness, and the endlessless of life of  The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, to only name a few.   Those words must be carefully translated and applied to doctrine. For another example, pertaining to death:  Matthew 27:1 "When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:" and Mark 7:10 "For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:"  Since Jesus Christ did die in His physical body, but He rose again, but did He ever curse "thy father and thy mother..."? No, of course not. Death here is contextually different in these two contrasting verse applications. Another contrasting verse, Acts 2:24 "Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." Jesus Christ cannot suffer spiritual death, nor was he forsaken, the sins of others--the flesh, were forsaken. However, his physical body died, but was resurrected on the third day. Unbelievers in Jesus Christ will see physical and spiritual death. Even yourself agree with this, however you believe this is only "for a duration of time."

4B---LAIRD REPLIES: All means all, not some. When we read "all mankind" will be justified, it means the "all" is limited to mankind {Rom.5:18-19}. When we read of "all" of you {i.e. believers}, it is speaking of Christians. Context determines the extent of "all". As for Isa.60:15, the translation you give is likely most accurate & is agreed upon by the CVOT, YLT & Ro, etc. Still, it has yet to be shown by even one solitary example that aionios must mean eternal in the Koine NT Greek. Even if it is such only because it is applied to a being whose "years have no end", it is nonsense to extend this reasoning to the unscriptural notion of endless torture in hell.

In "1 Enoch 10:10 there is an interesting statement using the Greek words: zoên aionion, "life eonian," or, as in the KJV,
"everlasting life" (at John 3:16 and elswhere). The whole sentence in Enoch is, hoti elpizousi zêsai zoên aionion, kai hoti zêsetai hekastos auton etê pentakosia, "For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years."
Here, eonian life is limited to five hundred years! In the N.T. eonian life is limited to life during the eons, after which death will be destroyed by making ALL alive IN CHRIST, incorruptible and immortal." {Louis Abbott, Analytical Study of Words website}.
 

5A---DON ASKS: 1 Enoch 10:10???  What?  Please quote scripture.  We are discussing scripture, so please reference scripture and not fairy tales.
All{pas} Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all[3956] and upon all[3956] them that  believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all[3956] Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 10:16 But they have not all[3956] obeyed the gospel.
Romans 12:4 For as we have many[4183] members in one body, and all[3956] members have not the same office:
1Corinthians 12:30 Have all[3956] the gifts of healing? do all[3956] speak with tongues? do all[3956] interpret?
Acts 13:39 And by him all[3956] that believe are justified from all things[3956], from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
2Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with
unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Corinthians 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?..."
2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean
[thing]; and I will receive you,
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all[3956] under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all[3956] the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are
all[3956] one in Christ Jesus.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all[3956] in all[3956].
Philippians 2:21 For all[3956] seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things[3956]; hold fast that which is good.
2Thessalonians 2:12 That they all[3956] might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all[3956] [men] have not faith.
2Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them[3956] also that love his appearing.
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things[3956] [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but
even their mind and conscience is defiled.

5B---LAIRD REPLIES: Again, "all" must be seen in each context. You cannot apply its extent in one passage to that in another. In Col.1:20 it is "all" in the heavens & on the earth who will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood. In 1Cor.15:22 it is "all" in Adam who shall be "in Christ". In 1Tim.2:4 it is "all mankind" whom God wills to save. Same with 1Tim.4:10 - the "all" includes all mankind, not just the predestined that God is the Saviour of.
Hebrews 7:28 "For the law is appointing men chief priests who have infirmity, yet the word sworn in the oath which is after the law, appoints the Son, perfected, for the eon." (note:  Jesus Christ never sinned, He is perfect for all eternity. Singular rendering of "...for the eon..." contradicts the plural of eon in Hebrews 13:8 "...for the eons..." )
 The perfection of Scripture is realized here. Traditionalist versions render two different words, eon and eons, as "forever", but the CLNT acknowledges the distinctions that the Divine Author has made & retains them in His Scriptures. To be consistent in their renderings, Traditionalists should have made eon "forever" and eons "foreverS". But that would have been nonsense. A careful study of scripture in context will reveal why the Divine Author has a single eon in view in some passages and a plurality of eons in mind in other verses.

6A---DON ASKS:  (quoting from Concordant Literal) Hebrews 9:12 "not even through the blood of he-goats and calves, but through His own blood, entered once for all time into the holy places, finding eonian redemption." (note:  this is making a mockery out of Jesus Christ dying on the cross.)

6B---LAIRD REPLIES:  Not at all. Redemption is not something that is given beyond the eons, so it is eonian rather than eternal. When God becomes "All in all" {1Cor.15:28}, there will be no more redemption required, for all will have been either redeemed or justified. Those who were not redeemed before the year of jubillee were set free at the year of jubillee. Redemption only lasted up till that time. Similarly, God's mercy is not everlasting, for once all become reconciled to God {Col.1:20}, mercy will no longer be needed, for all will be in right standing with God, justified, and incorruptible. Even in Traditionalist theology everlasting mercy makes no sense, for God has lost all patience & given up all hope for the lost - He no longer extends mercy to them. The truth is, however, God will be merciful to all {Rom.11:32,36}.

7A---DON ASKS:  If the blood of Jesus Christ is not eternal then forgiveness and the atonement of sin has not been paid. Therefore, eternal life does not exist as we know it. God cannot look at sin. Not one sin. "all in all"---1 Cor. 15:28 is referring to the Body of Christ. Do a word study on {pas, 3956}.

Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all[3956] of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all[3956] them that obey him;
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all[3956] should come to repentance.
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all[3956] of us.

7B---LAIRD REPLIES:  The blood of Jesus cleanses sin. Once we recieve an endless life through immortality and incorruption {1Cor.15:42,53}, there will be no more sin hence no more need of cleansing of sin by His blood. So redemption is "eonian", as I explained. Cleansing of sin is not an endless process, but immortal life is endless. Secondly, as for Heb.5:9, it speaks of "EONIAN salvation". In order to grasp the Scriptural teaching of universal salvation, it is important to understand how the word "salvation" is used in the Bible. The word "save" {Greek, SOZO} means "keep or deliver from injury or evil, such as disease, drowning, but especially from sins and their effect" {Greek-English Keyword Concordance, p.257}. The well-known Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says {Vine is "orthodox", btw}: "SOZO, to save, is used {as with the noun SOTERIA, salvation} of material and temporal deliverance from danger, suffering, etc., e.g. Matt.8:25; Mark 13:20; Luke 23:35;  John 12:27; 1Tim.2:15; 2Tim.4:18 {A.V. preserve}; Jude 5; from sickness, Matt. 9:22, Jas.5:15;..." {p.321}. He SHALL *save* His people Israel from their sins {Mt.1:21}. Who are His people? Israel {Mt.2:6}.  All Israel SHALL be saved {Rom.11:26}. Is that clear?
In Lk.8:49-50 the word "saved" is used of being saved from death. Mt.8:25; 14:30 refer to being "saved" from drowning.
     Scripture speaks of salvation is numerous ways that are not always regarding endless salvation, such as in salvation from disease, salvation from danger, a storm, salvation in child-bearing. It also speaks of the "eonian salvation" {Heb.5:9} of the believer, also termed "life eonian" {Jn.3:16}. This is the special {"especially" 1Tim.4:10} salvation that believers recieve that unbelievers do not. It is salvation in the oncoming eons that Paul speaks of {Eph.2:7}. These "eons" [or ages] refer to the millenial eon and the following new earth eon {wherein there will still be sickness, Rev.22:2, and generations, Psa.105:8}. At the 'end' of the eons {1Cor.15:24; Heb.9:26} God becomes "All in all" {1Cor.15:28; cf. v.22; Eph.1:9-11; Phil.2:9-11; etc} & thus all shall enter into eternity with salvation. So there is both a special "eonian salvation" to those who believe during the eons, and the salvation of all others also at the end of the eons and for eternity. These are two distinct revelations of the Scriptures.
For God is the "Saviour of all mankind, especially [not exclusively] of them that believe" {1Tim.4:10}.

7AA--DON RE-PHRASES "7A":
 GOD:
1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal[862](aphthartos), invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever[165](aion). Amen.
Jeremiah 10:10 But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an everlasting king:
1Timothy 6:15 "...[who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of
lords;"
1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality[110](athanasia), dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Revelation 17:14 "...the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings..."
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF
LORDS.
Daniel 4:34 "...and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:..."
Psalms 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from
everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God.
 

BELIEVERS:

1Corinthians 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption[861](aphtharsia):
1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth
corruption inherit incorruption[861](aphtharsia).
1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible[862](aphthartos), and we shall be changed.
1Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption[861](aphtharsia), and this mortal [must] put on immortality[110](athanasia).
1Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption[861](aphtharsia), and this mortal shall have put on immortality[110](athanasia), then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

CONCLUSION:  By the Universalist's own definition of there own eternal, "endless" life by the substantiation of the God becoming "all in all" in 1 Corinthians 15:28, by virtue of the incorruptible(aphtharsia) body being raised "immortal, incorruptible" are identical words, also substantiated by the Greek word's used to define "immortal, incorruptible" are identical to those Greek word's to define the attributes of God  (1 Timothy 6:16: immortality[110](athanasia) and1Timothy 1:17"immortal[862](aphthartos)")
Hence, this disproves the "for a period of time" definition of the Greek word's "aion and aionios"  by virtue that God himself is both "immortal and incorruptible."

7BB--LAIRD REPLIES:  LAIRD'S REPLY CLICK HERE  The version you use here is flawed. It renders
two different Greek words as immortal/immortality. 1Tim.1:17 reads correctly, "the King of the eons, the incorruptible,
invisible, only, and wise God...".

7AAA---DON ASKS AGAIN:  The version I use is flawed?????  Ahhhhh, nope.  The CLNT even CONFIRMS your error.  Don't believe me?  Click here:   SCANNED PAGE FROM CLNT and also  CLNT CONCORDANCE.

8A---DON ASKS:  (quoting from Concordant Literal) 1 Peter 1:23 "having been regenerated, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, living and permanent,"  (contradiction: Strong's #165 "aion" is rendered 'permanent' in this verse).

8B---LAIRD REPLIES:  Strong's is based on KJV which was not based on the oldest MSS which have no "aion" in this verse. Thus NIV has
: "enduring"; NASB "abiding"; NEB, "enduring" where the CLV has "permanent". Do you think all those versions also
: contradictory? Are you of the view that the KJV is the only true & perfect Word of God?

9A---DON ASKS: Yes, the KJV is the only true and perfect Word of God. And that is another argument that we can talk about later. But to avoid focus on these issues, but if you are so inclined to discuss the inerrancy of the KJV, I will be more than happy to discuss them with you. This discussion will not be short however. Either way. You failed to cite the parallel verse that will prove that the word of God is "aion." 1 Peter 1:25, "aion" appears in both the minority and majority Greek NT texts. Your only argument here is to say that "logos" and "rhema" are contextually separate. They are not. The rhema in 1 Peter 1:25 is also written in John 6:68. You wrote "That which is "for the eon" is, of course, "eonian". OK, then why does the LC not translate it "eonian" then? I thought your beloved LC is an accurate translation?

9B---LAIRD REPLIES: Well, I am certainly not of the view that the KJV is perfect. As for the declaration of the Lord, it is certainly "eonian". I see no problem with that. Peter explains that "this is the declaration which is being brought to you in the evangel" {1Pt.1:25}. Peter was declaring this declaration during the "times eonian" {2Tim.1:9}, in particular the "present wicked eon" {Gal.1:4}. So His declarations are indeed "eonian". How can anyone deny this? To make it "before times eternal" instead of "before times eonian" would be nonsense {Tit.1:2; 2Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25}.

10A---DON ASKS: (quoting from Concordant Literal) 1 Peter 1:25 "Yet the declaration of the Lord is remaining for the eon." (contradiction: the Greek word "rhema" which is Strong's #4487 also appears in John 6:68 "Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we come away? Declarations of life eonian has Thou!")

10B---LAIRD REPLIES:  I see no contradiction here. That which is "for the eon" is, of course, "eonian". It looks like perfect harmony to me.

11A---DON ASKS: (quoting from Concordant Literal)  1 John 5:20 "Yet we are aware that the Son of God is arriving,  and has given us a comprehension, that we know the True One, and we are in the True One, in His Son, Jesus Christ. This One is the true God and life eonian." (contradiction: 'arriving?' changing past tense into present tense, Jesus Christ had already ascended into heaven!)

11B---LAIRD REPLIES:  This does not regard His ascension into heaven, but His coming to men throughout the eons & generations. In this age of grace He continues to arrive in men's lives, generation after generation. NASB says "has come"; YLT, "is come". The Concordant Expositions website elaborates on the translation of Greek verb tenses in the CLV. There is also an article contrasting various verses in the KJV with the CLV, showing how KJV has been mistranslated.

12A---DON ASKS: (quoting from Concordant Literal) No. Refer to Titus 3:4 "Yet when the kindness and fondness for  humanity of our Saviour, God, made its advent....." Are not the words "made" past tense? "Advent" past tense? Also 1 Timothy 3:16, "...who was manifested in flesh, justified in spirit, seen by messengers, heralded among the nations, believed in the world, taken up in glory." All references here are past tense:
(quoting again from the Concordant Literal) "manifested.......justified......seen........heralded.......believed......taken."
Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons! Amen!"

12B---LAIRD REPLIES: Sorry, I don't see your point here.

13A---DON ASKS:  The Kingdom of Jesus Christ, once all judgment and death have been brought before the Great White Throne of Judgment, then the Son will turn over the Kingdom to the Father. Jesus Christ rose from the dead, once. There is only one resurrection. Those who are in the resurrection of the just.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death
hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After the conclusion of these 1000 years, the unjust are resurrected. After judgment, they die again, which is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
So here, in verse 20:14, when death and hell were cast.........this is the second death. So where is there a 2nd resurrection after the second death? There has to be a second resurrection from the dead for the unsaved for "all" to be saved.

13B---LAIRD REPLIES: If there were only one resurrection, it would be pointless in speaking of a "first" resurrection. Scripture speaks of numerous resurrections, both in the Greek and in the Hebrew Scriptures. As for there being a resurrection from the "second death", all the Scriptures that speak of the salvation of all mankind guarantee that. If any die again after their first death, they are guaranteed a resurrection because death itself will eventually be abolished {1Cor.15:26}. Since the dead are dead not alive, it is necessary that death be abolished & they be brought back to life "in Christ" {v.22} before God can be "All in all" {v.28}. God cannot be "All" to those who are dead. To them He is nothing, for they are conscious of nothing. The following webpage shows 3 resurrections in 1Cor.15:22-28 alone: http://expage.com/page/inchristall. We are never actually told that any mortals will enter the second death. In John's writings we see the following:
======================================================
First, I would point out that 20:15 in many translation says "IF" any were cast into the lake of fire.  Secondly, 21:5 says in some translations that God is "makING ALL new" or "everything" new.  This speaks of an ongoing process. Can you
therefore rule out universal salvation being taught in these chapters?  Thirdly, I will note that the judgements herein spoken of are not 'forever and ever' but eonian, literally "into the ages of the ages", as all authorities concur. Since "ages" {i.e. eons} in the Scriptures have both a beginning and an end, we have no warrant in Scripture for presuming that the judgements of Revelation are endless. Quite the contrary, they are finite. Fourthly, as noted in the book of John, Jesus says all judgements are "that ALL may *honor* the Son" {Jn.5:22-23}, so of a corrective nature.  This applies, therefore, to the great white throne judgement of the mortals who will be raised from the dead for the purpose of appearing there. Fifth, I can post material showing that the judgement of Mat.25:46 uses language that speaks of corrective punishment or "chastening", as numerous Bible versions have it. I also showed that the Greek aionios speaks of that which pertains to finite time periods as used in the Scriptures and in ancient Greek literature.  Sixthly, we have John's previous writing of his gospel wherein he speaks of "life eonian" in contrast to "eonian" 'perishing' {Jn.3:16}. The "life" spoken of in Rev.20:15 must be understood in the light of John 3:16, that it is speaking of "life EONIAN" not 'eternal'. This is confirmed by the phrase "ages of the ages" {or, eons} in reference to judgement in the same passage at 20:10.  Seventh, we have numerous additional statements by John in his writings that point to universal salvation, such
: as in John 1:13,29; 4:42; 5:22-23; 6:29;12:32; 15:16; 1Jn.2:1-2; 3:8; 4:14, etc.

The following article compares Rev.20-22 with 1Cor.15:22-28,

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS  Chapter Seventeen: The Complete Revelation

1 Corinthians 15:22-28: "The more one studies this Scripture as well as dozens like it, it becomes abundantly clear that as in Adam all died, the very same all will be made alive in Christ. There is not one in Adam who will not be made alive in Christ." - Louis Abbott

"Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 takes us much farther into the future than does the book of Revelation."
Some say that the teaching of universal salvation, or reconciliation, gives one license to do as he wishes with no fear for the consequences, and the "hell-fire" must be taught in order to keep them in line and get them saved. Some say also that Paul's teaching of salvation by grace gives license to sin, but consider this fact: Denominational teaching has included threats of eternal punishment in hell for many centuries, and it has not "saved" the masses of humanity as yet. Do men serve God best when they realize He loves humanity, or when they fear He will send them to "hell" forever? Romans 5:8-12 tells us God loved us while we were yet sinners, and sent Christ to die for the sake of the irreverent. Although most seem to believe the book of Revelation tells of God's ultimate goal, Paul tells us it was given to him to complete the words of God and the consummation was revealed to him, not to John, even though in human measurement of time, Revelation probably was written after the books attributed to Paul. Paul says (Col. 1:25), "...of which I became the dispenser according to the administration of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God." He was not speaking in terms of time, but in matters of revelation. It is through the writings of Paul that we get the truths concerning God's ultimate goal for mankind, as well as for the entire universe.

Dr. J.B. Lightfoot, in his commentary on Colossians, says (p. 67), "The word plerosai, to fulfill; i.e., to preach fully. To give its complete development to." Luther used reichlich predigen, "to preach fully," and Olshausen says: "That is, to declare the gospel in all its fullness and extent." Each of these writers were commenting upon the plêrosai, the completing of the revelation of God, by Paul.

Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given in Revelation and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:

In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:

: No more rule
: No more authority
: No more power
: No more enemies
: No more reigning
: All subjected
: No more death, death destroyed.
: All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20-22, we have:

: Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
: Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
: Authority (21:24,25)
: Power (21:24,25; 22:2
: Kings (21:24-26)
: Saints reign (22:5)
: Second death still exists (21:5)
: The nations still mortal (22:2)
: -end quote

Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20-22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)

Consequently, Col. 1:16-20:
:All in heaven and earth created in Him (verse 16)
:All for Him (verse 16)
:All estranged are reconciled (verse 20)
:1 Corinthians 15:22:
:In Adam all are dying
:In Christ shall all be made alive

The literal Greek in 1 Corinthians 15:22 reads:
posphor gar en to Adam pantes apothneskousin houtos kai en to christo pantes zoopoiethesontai.
"Even as for in the Adam all are dying, thus also in the Christ, all shall be made alive."
The more one studies this Scripture as well as dozens more like it, it becomes abundantly clear that as in Adam all died, that very same all will be made alive in Christ. There is not one in Adam that will not be made alive in Christ. It is a perfectly balanced statement which Jesus said was already set in motion.

14A---DON ASKS:  (quoting from Concordant Literal)Revelation 22:5 "And night shall be no more, and they have no need of lamplight and sunlight, for the Lord God shall be illuminating them. And they shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." (note:  very contradictory rendering of "aionios" since this reign is after the judgement, not before!)

14B---LAIRD REPLIES:  The word here is AIONON, not "aionios". Aionios is the adjectival form whereas AIONON is the noun in its plural form, the noun being AION. Revelation 20:5-6 says they will live & reign with Christ "the thousand years", that is, for the millenial EON. Rev.22:5 reveals that they will also reign for EONS {plural}. John, the writer, was speaking from the time frame before the millenium begins. Moreover, immediately following the statement of v.5 he is again back to the time frame of Rev.1:1, as is evident from 20:6ff. It was already shown above that the "eons of the eons" have an end, so are not 'forever & ever'.
Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality[861], eternal[166] life: (note: same thing here again with #166{aionios}, except it is not #165{aion})
This is the KJV rendering, and the word is "incorruption", which is mistranslated by KJV as "immortality". The correct
translation is:
Rom.2:7 "to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian;"
Compare the use of the word "incorruption" {APHTHARSIA}with that in Ephesians 6:24,
Eph.6:24 "Grace be with all who are loving our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption! Amen!"
Of course Paul is not speaking in Eph.6:24 of the saints loving the Lord in immortality, for they were not immortal then! The idea there is loving the Lord "in incorruption" or something similar to purity. Purity is also the thought in Rom.2:9.
What is being spoken of in Rom.2:9 is "life eonian", not eternal life, and no one can obtain this by good works & seeking incorruption, for it is a free & gracious gratuity of God {Rom.6:23} to the chosen, predestinated, called ones {Rom.8:28-30; 2Tim.1:9; Eph.1:4-5,11}. Scripture speaks of salvation in numerous ways that are not regarding endless salvation, such as in salvation from disease, salvation from danger, a storm, salvation in child-bearing. It also speaks of the "eonian salvation" {Heb.5:9} of the believer, also termed "life eonian" {Jn.3:16}. This is the special {"especially" 1Tim.4:10} salvation that believers recieve that unbelievers do not. It is the salvation in the oncoming eons that Paul speaks of {Eph.2:7}. These "eons" [or ages] refer to the millenial eon and the following new earth eon {wherein there will still be sickness, Rev.22:2, and generations, Psa.105:8}. At the 'end' of the eons {1Cor.15:24; Heb.9:26} God becomes "All in all" {1Cor.15:28; cf. v.22; Eph.1:9-11; Phil.2:9-11; etc} & thus all shall enter into eternity with salvation. So there is both a special "eonian salvation" to those who believe during the eons, and the salvation of all others also at the end of the eons and for eternity. These are two distinct revelations of the Scriptures. For God is the "Saviour of all mankind, especially [not exclusively] of them that believe" {1Tim.4:10}.

15A---DON ASKS:  Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible[862] God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1Corinthians 9:25 And every[3956] man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things[3956].  Now they [do it]
to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible[862].
1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:  for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible[862], and we shall be changed.
1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal[165], immortal[862], invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for
ever[165] and ever[165]. Amen. (note: Strong's Concordance #165 is "aion" which is rendered "eon" in the Concordant Literal.  Major error since God is immortal, God is clearly not "for a period of time.")
1Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible[862], and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible[862], by the word of God, which liveth and
abideth  for ever[165]. (note:  same thing here again with #165)
1Peter 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible[862], [even the ornament] of a
meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality[861], eternal[166] life: (note:  same thing here again with #166{aionios}, except it is not #165{aion})
2Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and
hath brought life and immortality[861] to light through the gospel:

15B---LAIRD REPLIES:  Of course Jesus Christ has not yet "abolished death", so the KJV here is nonsense. The CLNT reads: 10 "yet now is being manifested through the advent of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, Who, indeed, abolishes death, yet illuminates life and incorruption through the evangel". Death will not be fully abolished till 1Cor.15:26. Now it is in the process of being abolished, beginning with the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the transformation of the called ones throughout the generations.

16A---DON ASKS:  Nonsense? Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.
Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
1Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

16B---LAIRD REPLIES: I don't see death having been abolished in any of these verses. Scripture plainly says that believers still die {Rom.8:36; 38; 1Cor.15:16-19; 1Thess.4:13-18}.

17A---DON ASKS:  Here are a few more maybe you can explain to me clearer:
(quoting from Concordant Literal)Romans 3:22 "yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,"
(note: this rendering contradicts with Romans 3:25, Acts 24:24, Acts 20:21, Acts 26:18, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:26, and Ephesians 1:15 to only name a few verses! Righteousness is only thru faith IN Jesus Christ.)

Ephesians 3:12 "in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith."
(note: this rendering contradicts with Romans 3:25, Acts 24:24, Acts 20:21, Acts 26:18, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:26, and Ephesians 1:15 to only name a few verses! Righteousness is only thru faith IN Jesus Christ.)

17B---LAIRD DOES NOT REPLY

18A---DON ASKS:  (quoting from Concordant Literal)Mark 3:29 "yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin." (note: this is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit by implying that the Holy Spirit is not equal with The Father and The Son. The Holy Spirit is also given by Jesus Christ. John 14:18, John 20:22, Matthew 3:11, 2 Thessalonians 2:8)

18B---LAIRD REPLIES: The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not failing to write the words "Holy" and "Spirit" in small letters. Jesus never said that. To capitalize the letters would assume that the Holy Spirit is a person as distinct from being "the power of the Most High" {Lk.1:35}, so the CV leaves it to the reader to determine that rather than imposing it upon the Scriptures. Similarly, the CV doesn't interpret aion as do the KJV and others but literally translates it as "eon" and leaves the interpretation to the reader and between himself and God.

19A---DON ASKS:  Will Satan be "reconciled"?

19B---LAIRD REPLIES:   Yes, he will, since Col.1:20 speaks of "all" in the heavens being "reconciled" to God through Christ's blood. See also Phil.2:9-11; Eph.1:9-11; 1Jn.3:8; Jn.8:44; Job 26:13; Isa.54:16.
"The scope of Col.1:20 is all the beings in the heavens and on the earth that are in an irreconciled condition with God. Paul sets the stage for how wide the scope of "the all" is.
1) Firstborn of EVERY creature, (Col.1:16)
2) in Him is the all created, the [all] in the heavens and the [all] on the earth (Col.1:16)
3) the all is created through Him and for Him, (Col.1:17)
4) and He is before all,
5) and the all has its cohesion in Him. (Col.1:17).
 
 
 

                              Posted by Laird on April 14, 1999 at 09:11:24:

In Reply to: (to Laird again) another question posted by yup (DON) on April 13, 1999 at 13:29:07:

20A---DON ASKS:  Mr. Laird, another question to you that caught my attention. You wrote "But a most conclusive
passage is that where we are assured that if Jesus is avowed as Lord, salvation results {Rom.10:9}."
When you are confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart (Romans 10:10) that JESUS IS LORD(Romans 10:9 and also Phillipians 2:9-11), what are you avowing or confessing?  In other words, what do you mean by "LORD"? Be specific as in much depth as you wish.

20A---LAIRD REPLIES:  Good morning, yup,

By "Lord" we do not have a declaration that Jesus is God Most High, of Whom He is the "Son" {Lk.1:32,35}. There
are many lords & many gods {1Cor.8:4-6}. Jesus is special, however, as He is "Lord of all" {Rom.10:12} and whoever calls on His name shall be saved {Rom.10:13}. God made Him both "Lord" and "Christ" {Acts 2:36}. Christians can
speak of Him as "our" Lord {Eph.1:3} in a unique way.

In Christ,
Laird Posted by Laird (qldial34.quicklinks.on.ca) on April 27, 1999 at 20:26:43:

20AA---LAIRD (JULY 22, 1999) REPLIES:

Posted by Laird (207.236.88.167) on July 22, 1999 at 14:22:32:

In Reply to: Re: Every Page... one comment to Laird posted by firstjohn5:7 on July 22, 1999 at 13:51:48:
2Tim.2:22 Now youthful desires flee: yet pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with all who are invoking the Lord out of a clean heart. 23 Now stupid and crude questionings refuse, being aware that they are generating fightings. 24 Now a slave of the Lord must not be fighting, but be gentle toward all, apt to teach, bearing with evil, 25 with meekness training those who are antagonizing, seeing whether God may be giving them repentance to come into a realization of the truth, 26 and they will be sobering up out of the trap of the Adversary, having been caught alive by him, for that one's will.

We worship the Lord Jesus Christ our Lord & Saviour, our peace, grace, life, holiness, joy and righteousness salvation, deliverance, and so much more...our all.
He is God. He is Yahweh. He is Alpha & Omega.
He is God's Image, Firstborn of every creature.
He is Lord of all and Saviour of the world.

20AA---DON COMMENTS:  amen!  Jesus Christ is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.  Praise the LORD! (see below, I was premature in Laird's confession of who Jesus Christ is.  Laird, by scriptural defintion, is the spirit of antichrist.  Laird confesses 1 John 2:22, but fails on 1 John 4:2 & 1 John 4:3 & 2 John 1:7.  My mistake.)
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the
Son.
1John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the
Father also].
1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets
are gone out into the world.
1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of
God:
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that
[spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

20AAA---LAIRD REPLIES:  Posted by Laird (207.236.88.158) on July 22, 1999 at 22:40:09:

In Reply to: In u-knee land there is a list of attachments to this... posted by Eel on July 22, 1999 at 22:33:19:

(EEL ASKS):   So, If Jesus is God did Jesus raise Himself from the dead Laird?

LAIRD REPLIES:  I don't know. I'll continue to worship Jesus Christ as God
and leave the finer details to the Creator.

20AAA---LAIRD CHANGES WHEN CONFRONTED AGAIN:

Posted by Laird (207.236.88.173) on October 06, 1999 at 16:10:13:

In Reply to: Re: 4 reasons you cannot debate Laird posted by firstjohn5:7 on October 06, 1999 at 14:07:47:

: #1: first you say you are "born again" but you do not acknowledge that Jesus Christ IS The Creator.

 LAIRD REPLIES: Sure I do. Jesus IS the Creator. There, I just acknowledged it.

: #2: secondly, you will not admit your lying in regards to the Ankerberg article

LAIRD REPLIES:   I think that you got that backwards. You are the one who lied.

: #3: after literally hundreds of refutal's of ukneeism preaching which have been shown repeatedly to be contrary to the
: Word of God, you insist on preaching lies.

 LAIRD REPLIES: Universal salvation is a scriptural truth. See link below.

: #4: even when you are presented with your OWN misinformation (via your very own links) and lies, you will not verify your own teachings, then WHY SHOULD I DEBATE WITH YOU?
 

20AAAA---LAIRD CHANGES AGAIN CONFRONTED by Diane S:

Posted by Laird (207.236.88.177) on October 21, 1999 at 15:28:50:

In Reply to: I agree with your post and thanks.....but........ posted by Diane S on October 21, 1999 at 14:58:17:

Diane, I do not have an opinion on whether Jesus is Almighty
God or not. He is certainly termed "God" {Jn.1:1; Heb.1:8,
etc} and I worship Him as the Way the Truth and the Life.
If He is not God Almighty, why does He have no beginning
of days {Heb.7:3}?

In Reply to: 6 problem questions for universalists posted by firstjohn5_7 on April 27, 1999 at 15:53:20:
21A---DON ASKS:  If "all" means all, then why is Satan and his angel's not reconciled? "All" is not 'all' now is it? "All" refers to the Body of Christ.
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

21B---LAIRD REPLIES:  Your point A is answered in my post on Hebrews 2. As for point B, what is your point? Who is suffesting "all" will be resurrected in the first resurrection? Not me.  (DON'S note:  see line 19B).
 

22A---DON ASKS:  Where are "all" resurrected in the first resurrection? (the resurrection of the just)

22B---LAIRD REPLIES: Your point A is answered in my post on Hebrews 2. As for point B, what is your point? Who is suffesting "all" will be resurrected in the first resurrection? Not me.
 

23A---DON ASKS:  If "all" are saved, then why is there not a resurrection AFTER the second death? However, there is no resurrection afterJesus Christ our LORD turns his Kingdom over to The Father. Why?

23B---LAIRD REPLIES: Of course there is a resurrection from second death, IF anyone is in it. Death is to be abolished {1Cor.15:26}, whether first death or second death. Then God will be "All in all" {v.28}.

24A---DON ASKS:  If "all" are saved, then why is there not a resurrection AFTER the second death? However, there is no resurrection after Jesus Christ our LORD turns his Kingdom over to The Father. Why?
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
There is only one resurrection and Jesus Christ is the resurrection! Only Jesus Christ has the keys.
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore[#165](aion), Amen; and have
the keys of hell and of death.

24B---LAIRD REPLIES:   No, there have been many resurrections already. Jesus was resurrected, He raised Lazarus, etc, etc, etc.
 
 

25A---DON ASKS: How are "all" saved after death has been conquered? Not only death was conquered, but also sorrow, crying, pain and the old heavens and the earth are passed away.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow,
nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (this fulfill's 1 Corinthians 15:28).
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.

25B---LAIRD REPLIES: Death is not abolished because second death still exists with the dead in it, if any dead are in it. Also, people are still getting "healing" {Rv.22:2}, so perfection has not come. And "generations" will still be being born {Psa.105:8}. To say there is "no more death" on the new earth does not mean death is "abolished" {1Cor.15:26}. If your town sees no more death, that doesn't abolish the death of all those that are still in their graves, does it? If it did, then they would not be 6 feet under in the cemetary, but resurrected again. Not until all in Adam are "in Christ" {1Cor.15:22} will death be abolished {v.26}. Then God will be "All in all" {v.28}, the Father being the only exception in the immediate context {v.27}. As yet further proofs that death will not yet be abolished by Rev.20-22, please consider the following:

In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20-22, we have:
Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2)
-end quote
 

26A---DON ASKS:  Judgment is final after the second death.
Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.  The Bride is prepared to be joined with the LORD.
Revelation 21:9 "...Come hither, I will shew thee THE BRIDE, the Lamb's wife." (The Body of Christ is united with the LORD here)
Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination,
or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. (not "all" are written, but "they", the Body of Christ is written in the book)

26B---LAIRD REPLIES (1st part): Actually, from verse 6 of chapter 22 the vision of the book of Revelation has reverted back to the time before the Lord's coming, and John is back on Patmos, so v.11 cannot refer to a time after the second death. See also verses 16-17ff, that this does not refer to what you claim. Compare also 1Cor.14:38.

26B---LAIRD REPLIES (2nd part): We have John's previous writing of his gospel wherein he speaks of "life eonian" in contrast to "eonian" 'perishing' {Jn.3:16}. The "life" spoken of in Rev.20:15 must be understood in the light of John 3:16, that it is speaking of "life EONIAN" not 'eternal'. This is confirmed by the phrase "ages of the ages" {or, eons} in reference to judgement in the same passage at 20:10. Moreover, we have numerous additional statements by John
in his writings that point to universal salvation, such as in John 1:13,29; 4:42; 5:22-23; 6:29; 12:32; 15:16; 1Jn.2:1-2; 3:8; 4:14, etc. No, no unbelievers shall enter the New Jerusalem, not until they are "in Christ" as scripture reveals they shall be: 1Cor.15:22; Eph.1:9-11; Phil.2:9-11; etc.

27A---DON ASKS:  The problem with Strongs #165, (aion) being defined as for an "age or eon" of time as defined by Universalist's, by the definition of everlasting to everlasting immortality of Jesus Christ, torment which is the result of damnation and also believers having eternal life, there exists a paradox. Jesus Christ existed before the world began! He is from everlasting to everlasting. It is either one or the other. Universalist/Unitarians cannot answer these questions! Also, by scriptural definition of everlasting life, this is also confirmed by 1 Corinthians 15:53 - 54, we "put on immortality."

27B---LAIRD REPLIES:  The immortality of Christ is not from everlasting to everlasting. Christ became a mortal and died, remember. Now that He is resurrected, He alone has immortality {1Tim.6:16}. The point you are trying to make here is not clear.

28A---DON ASKS:  If we "put on immortality," that in ITSELF proves [#165](aion), but also by virtue of the fact that the LORD Jesus Christ is eternal, He is immortal. One cannot have eternal life without the LORD being eternal. Therefore, the torment described in Revelation 20:10 is also eternal!

28B---LAIRD REPLIES: Again, the point you are trying to make here is unclear. Perhaps you could supply some scripture references to clarify things. Revelation 20:10 is acknowledged by authorities to speak literally of "ages of the ages", not for 'ever and ever'. That "ages of the ages" have a beginning and an end is evident because Christ's reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom to the Father {1Cor.15:24-28}, not 'forever & ever' {Rv.11:15}. Once God becomes "All in all" {1Cor.15:28}, no more reigning will be needed, for all will willingly love Him from their hearts.

29A---DON ASKS:  So which one is it? Does the universalist definition of it's very own "immortal" life conflict with the LORD'S own attribute of being immortal?

29B---LAIRD REPLIES:  Again, this needs clarification. I don't follow what you're saying here - it makes no sense.

30A---DON ASKS:  Try referring back to your earlier post.  "7B---LAIRD REPLIES:  The blood of Jesus cleanses sin. Once we recieve an endless life through immortality and incorruption {1Cor.15:42,53}..."
I have re-phrased my earlier question to you in question "7AA."

31A---DON ASKS:  Is God now endless?

31A---LAIRD REPLIES:
Posted by Laird (207.236.88.184) on October 28, 1999 at 20:50:14:

In Reply to: Re: shoots Laird theory down in flames posted by firstjohn5:7 on October 28, 1999 at 19:50:12:

DON ASKS:  Ukneeism calls God "eonian" or temporary. Uknee's claim that Jesus Christ will not reign forever. However, Jesus Christ ONLY is immortal, incorruptible and is endless (1 Timothy 6:16, 1 Timothy 1:17, Hebrews 7:16).

LAIRD REPLIES:  Eonian means in relation to an eon or eons. The Lord is the
"King of the eons" {1Tim.1:17; Rev.15:3; see NIV for Rev.,
YLT for 1Tim.} or ages. The ages end {Heb.9:26}. Does that
mean God is only temporary? Of course not! God's years have
no end {Psa.102:27}.

DON ASKS:  The uknee difficulty is attempting to explain to another, is there contradictory doctrine: Jesus Christ does not reign forever, so immortality ends.

LAIRD REPLIES:  No, His reign ends {1Cor.15:24-25}, but how can immortality end?

DON ASKS:  And thus, uknees have defeated their own doctrine.

LAIRD REPLIES:  I think you have misunderstood something.
 

Posted by Tony N. (198.111.63.116) on September 08, 1999 at 07:22:18:

In Reply to: Re: Here is a sample of grade 10 "logic" vs. Tony's logic posted by firstjohn5:7 on September 08, 1999 at
03:49:56:

It is one thing for a person to get eonian life, or to have anything pertaining to the eons.

It is entirely another thing for a person to get immortality and incorruption and vivification.
 

What your problem is is that you are letting the noun modify the adjective as in "eonian God." Rather than let the adjective modify the noun you do the opposite.

For instance in 2Ths.1:9 is the phrase "eonian extirmination". If we let the word "extirmination" force its meaning on the word "eonian" then we have the eons being extirminated since we know that that which is extirminated will not last.

You are doing the same with the phrase "eonian God."

Why do you take just one attribute of God such as how long God lives and apply it to eonian? Why not another attribute such as "God is love" or "spirit" or "light"?

The adjective modifies the noun and is that which pertains to the noun it represents. Eonian represents that which is pertaining to the eon(s).

There are many things in life which are pertaining to the eons and which do not last "forever."

There are somethings such as immortality and incorruption which happen to last longer than the eons and so are not eonian.

Get it?
I doubt you do.